Blog Watch: So Did Obama “Blow Off” Troops, Or Didn’t He?
about Obama apparently dissing the troops on his trip to a military base Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan. I’ll be honest I did not know what to make of the initial story.
On the one hand my general reaction would be that pompous fuck how dare he not take the time to at least greet the soldiers, but on the other hand I’m thinking look at this political phony meeting with military personnel when I know damm well he does not give a shit about them.
An update on this post provided by our bud Muscle Daddy indicated that “Obama was a great deal more chummy with the troops in Kabul.”
There was also this piece at Hot Air Snubbing wounded soldiers?
But over at Blackfive there was this post Defending Obama, Seriously.
The blog American Power has: Obama Scrubs Troop Visit in Germany, Readies Transition Team with a few more links.
Since I’m not in my typically cranky ranting mood I’m not sure what to think or if I even care.
I have the same attitude about Obama as I did when Bill Clinton was running for president.
Y’all might remember Bill Clinton’s December 1969 letter to his ROTC Director, Colonel Eugene Holmes.
or THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: New Hampshire; Clinton Thanked Colonel in ‘69 For ‘Saving Me From the Draft’
In contrast to this article: “Hillary Says She Once Tried to Be Marine”.
Remember folks many times even though I may not generally care about a particular topic I still may post something for future reference and research.
If “The Messiah” is elected president, how he deals with the troops will be an issue and we may need to revisit this issue down the road.
This preview on the topic is from Confederate Yankee
Sphere: Related ContentWriting in today’s New York Daily News, James Gordon Meek states that U.S. Army officials have disputed an email sent out by an American serviceman stationed at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan, where the author claims that Barack Obama disrespected American servicemen by refusing to meet with them.
The email was published here in full yesterday, and read:
Hello everyone,
As you know I am not a very political person. I just wanted to pass along that Senator Obama came to Bagram Afghanistan for about an hour on his visit to “The War Zone”. I wanted to share with you what happened. He got off the plan[sic] and got into a bullet proof vehicle, got to the area to meet with the Major General (2 Star) who is the commander here at Bagram. As the Soldiers where lined up to shake his hand he blew them off and didn’t say a word as he went into the conference room to meet the General. As he finished, the vehicles took him to the ClamShell (pretty much a big top tent that military personnel can play basketball or work out in with weights) so he could take his publicity pictures playing basketball. He again shunned the opportunity to talk to Soldiers to thank them for their service. So really he was just here to make a showing for the American’s back home that he is their candidate for President. I think that if you are going to make an effort to come all the way over here you would thank those that are providing the freedom that they are providing for you. I swear we got more thanks from the NBA Basketball Players or the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders than from one of the Senators, who wants to be the President of the United States. I just don’t understand how anyone would want him to be our Commander-and-Chief. It was almost that he was scared to be around those that provide the freedom for him and our great country.
If this is blunt and to the point I am sorry but I wanted you all to know what kind of caliber of person he really is. What you see in the news is all fake.
Meeks’ article counters:
But angry Army brass debunked the Obama-bashing soldier’s allegations, which went viral Thursday over the Web and on military blogs such as Blackfive.
The e-mail claims Obama repeatedly shunned soldiers on his way to the Clamshell - a recreation tent - to “take his publicity pictures playing basketball.”
“These comments are inappropriate and factually incorrect,” said Bagram spokesman Army Lt. Col. Rumi Nielson-Green, who added that such political commentary is barred for uniformed personnel.
Obama didn’t play basketball at Bagram or visit the Clamshell, he said. Home-state troops were invited to meet him, but his arrival was kept secret for security reasons.
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July 25th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Folks,
Stop falling for news delivered by email. Go seek the truth for yourself… the viral email that was circulating was a hoax, pure and simple, with the intent to plant seeds of hostility. This is the email equivalent of the Swift Boat Veteran’s for Truth testimonials, all of which have been debunked.
Want to read the truth on this? Go to Snopes.com, a site dedicated to an unbiased debunking of emails like this.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/afghanistan.asp
July 25th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Note the title of the post, note that I have links back to the various posts and if you read the Confederate Yankee post it notes “angry Army brass debunked the Obama-bashing soldier’s allegations.”
Blackfive also has:
More Witness Email - Senator Obama’s PR Tour
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2008/07/more-witness-em.html
Newsmax has Obama Flipping and Floundering in Middle East
http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/obama_in_middle_east/2008/07/24/115974.html
and http://constitutionallyright.com/2008/07/25/obama-snubs-troops-for-lack-of-a-photo-op/
My point is although I may not like Obama, I posted what was discussed on other more prominent blogs.
The vast majority of bloggers do check out multiple blog sources to get the scoop.
Although Snopes debunks the accounts Blackfive stands by his contacts and I find dude to be credible and he stands by his sources.
I find it odd that Snopes already has a piece debunking the troop snub. How could they already have a debunking piece when they are likely to have the same source material that everybody else has?
On the Swift Boat mess liberals have been desperately trying to push the Swift Boat veterans have been debunked crap for awhile, than a flat lie. The right side of the blog world vetted this stuff.
Never mind that the left ignored the fraud from the Rathergate forgeries not to mention that the libs were pissed because thay were not able to totally dismiss the Swift dudes .
FYI Kerry was forced to recant his lies about the “searing, searing” visit to Cambodia, was forced to admit that, indeed, one of his purple hearts might have been the result of self-inflicted injuries, and Kerry still has not signed his Form 180 or released nearly 100
pages of his military records, despite his proven lies that he has released all his records.
Oh you also must have forgot: Swift Boat Backer Offers $1M To Anyone Who Can Prove Ads Were Wrong
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/16/swift-boat-backer-offers-_n_73071.html
As far as I know nobody has claimed the cool million!
NEXT COMPLAINT!!
July 27th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
I find it odd that Snopes already has a piece debunking the troop snub. How could they already have a debunking piece when they are likely to have the same source material that everybody else has?
See: http://xkcd.com/250/
July 28th, 2008 at 8:30 am
Peggy have you read this article:
Online rumor mill spins its own myth; Snopes.com is presented by some media outlets as an unbiased arbiter of rumors and hoaxes. But critics say its liberal bias causes it to create urban legends of its own
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_12_18/ai_84396670/pg_2?tag=artBody;col1
July 28th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
No, I hadn’t Snoop. Thanks! I sent it along to a few others. I confess to my own laziness in relying on snopes.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Don’t get me wrong, Snopes is reliable about a lot of stuff but they have increasingly been showing a “liberal” bias when “debunking” some stuff.
Debunking the Obama issue so suddenly seemed so odd to me.
Check this out as well:
The Army Times and AP Use False Photo to Denounce “Obama Blew off the troops” email
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2008/07/army-times-and.html
July 28th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
It’s always easy to point at a site and say that they have a Right or Left Wing bias in an effort to discount their efforts to present the facts that they find.
I have yet to see this bias, and have seen similar (if not an equal amount) of articles on McCain.
Must be a Left Wing conspiracy to seem, (dare I say it?) Fair and Balanced ™
July 28th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Oh, and Snoop? Several people (Including Kerry himself) have approached T. Boone Pickens with proof of the Swift Boat Vets for (cough) Truth’s lies, and Pickens has repeatedly changed the rules for what HE deems as proof.
Here’s a clip from the Wall Street Journal, Nov. 2007:
Earlier this week it was reported that Kerry was taking Pickens up on his offer (we noted it Monday). Yesterday Spectator editor Bob Tyrrell sent along the correspondence between Kerry and Pickens (Pickens’s reply comes first, then Kerry’s original letter), and it turns out there’s a lot less to this than meets the eye. Kerry merely asserts that “I am prepared to prove the lie beyond any reasonable doubt” and then demands the moolah:
‘I would request that your check be made payable to the Paralyzed Veterans of America. . . . My hope is that by sending this money to such a dedicated organization–founded for veterans, by veterans–some good can come out of the ugly smears and lies of the orchestrated campaign you bankrolled in 2004 in an attempt to discredit my military record and the record of the men who served alongside me on the Swift Boats of the Mekong Delta.’
Pickens wasn’t born yesterday, however. He wrote back noting that Kerry actually had to prove it. He asked Kerry to send “the journal you maintained during your service in Vietnam” and “your military record, specifically your service records for the years 1971-1978, and copies of all movies and tapes made during your service.”
—
Kerry, then released parts of his service records as they pertained to some of the claims made by SBVT, but now Pickens wants more?
I expect that Pickens won’t be happy until someone builds a time machine and takes him back there.
Pickens will keep changing the rules and avoiding the payout in an effort to keep claiming that no-one has collected his ‘reward’. Misdirectional Politicking at it’s finest.
July 28th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
WatchingFromAfar dude, first of all I am very appreciative of the folks who comment here. I sincerely wish that more folks from the left would stop by and give their two cents. I only mention this because I don’t want to come off and dismissive or confrontational.
Why do you care? Or more importantly why should I care?
The charges of the Swift Boat dudes were never dismissed totally out of hand.
I’ve been to the numerous websites and read the people trying to defend Kerry but none of what I have read was definitive. I read the passage you quoted from Wikipedia and several other websites defending Kerry.
If Kerry thought he was being screwed he should have more vehemently fought those attacks during the election cycle.
But for get about that, I understand that there is always going to be political spin and some dirty dealing with politics.
Take Obama’s connections to some scrupulous folks, some of us on the right can shine the magnifying glass on just the right spots to uncover more of the perceived dirt.
But even is there was never a Swift Boat, in fact at the time I paid little attention to it, I frankly did not give a damm about it, Kerry to me was a seriously unsuitable choice to lead this nation.
I thank God he did not win the election. From calling our troops terrorists:
http://www.youtube.com/v/EXaoavV1d4s&hl=en&fs=1
to calling them stupid
http://www.youtube.com/v/MPYVdV6WzwM&hl=en&fs=1
John Kerry is frankly an idiot not worthy of discussing if the Swift Boat dudes screwed him. He is as anti-American and anti-Military and as liberal a politician as I can stand.
I simply don’t find him worth of discussing.
He is not even respected by his Democrat colleagues and the party threw him under the bus and for good reason.
Thankfully the American people were smart enough not to give this dolt keys to the White House he would have been a disastrous president.
Kerry A man with little to show for his time in the Senate and someone lacking a political soul.
Kerry’s ‘72 Army Comments Mirror Latest
http://politicalpartypoop.com/2006/11/02/kerrys-72-army-comments-mirror-latest/
“I don’t like John Kerry. He’s an arrogant man.”
http://politicalpartypoop.com/2006/11/01/kerry-kerry-more-kerry/
And this man could have been president, part 2: How John Kerry “supports the troops”
http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2006/10/31/and-this-man-could-have-been-president-part-2-how-john-kerry-supports-the-troops/
August 1st, 2008 at 7:23 am
I’m certainly not saying that Kerry was the perfect candidate. Far from it… though I believe he would have done the country a whole hell of a lot better than the current regime.
… but that wasn’t the point of my original message. It’s the way the internet (and even more specifically, email) has become a breeding ground for a whole new level of political misrepresentations and smears that can, and do go unchecked.
I urge anyone who gets messages like this to do their research and check their facts… as I’m sure *you* do because you certainly don’t come across as someone who believes something on first draft (though, you may be prone to highlight it on your site without providing backup or balance)
… but unfortunately, we live in a world where people are so politically bent that they gladly strap on blinders and see only what they want to see. And to me, that’s a very sad thing.
The US is a nation divided far further than I have ever seen, almost to the point that people are so rabidly passionate about their political leanings that they vote blindly. They would prefer to vote for the party, for the media-driven ideal, for the left or right, than for the right candidate… and will happily jump on stories such as the one prompting this thread to JUSTIFY their vote without getting the whole picture.
I find it interesting that you allude to the fact that I may be from “the left” … it’s that black and white division that’s splitting the nation. While it’s true, I have some liberal leanings, I also support several conservative ideals. I have voted for both sides because I voted for the person that I believe is the right candidate that addresses (or says that they’ll address) MY concerns.
I try not to get caught up in the crap-distractions of gay marriage, abortion, and the death penalty, and I loathe any politician who uses these topics to score points with the right or left. They’re passion-topics that have very little effect in addressing what is REALLY going wrong with the US.
Do you really believe that Barack Obama doesn’t support the troops? I certainly don’t… as a matter of fact, I don’t know ANYONE, with left or right leanings who doesn’t support the soldiers fighting this foolish war… but, man… get a candidate over there playing basketball and smile his political smile, and all of a sudden he’s a soldier-hater. Give me a break.
Are Kerry’s Military records all that big a deal in the grand scheme of things? Was he such a mastermind that he fooled the entire US Army into awarding him medals, and convinced all the people in his troop to back up his story, just so that, three decades later, he could become president?
Sigh… deep breath… calm down.
All I want is for people to see all sides of the candidates they’re voting for, and make an intelligent decision. Stop looking at whether they’re red or blue, or follow a donkey, an elephant, or whatever animal Ralph Nader follows… and stop getting distracted by shiny objects like fake emails and pointless passion topics.
Enough already.
August 1st, 2008 at 8:42 am
WatchingFromAfar:
Ok let me pick off some of these points…
I’m certainly not saying that Kerry was the perfect candidate. Far from it… though I believe he would have done the country a whole hell of a lot better than the current regime.
********
I use to have this discussion with people when I first started blogging years ago and not a single individual has ever answered the question so I’ll try you since this is Friday.
Now let me be clear that I think John Kerry is a moronic bastard but putting that aside I have always been someone who believes that this nation is greater than any one president. No matter how retarded someone may be he can’t fuck up this nation.
The president can provide a general direction for the nation but have no real bearing on all of our every day lives.
I have said a million times frankly I don’t give a shit who is president except for one thing, court appointments. This election cycle if Obama is president he will appoint some moronic liberal who do what all liberal judges do from the bench and that is legislate “political” policy from said bench.
If Kerry had been president not much would have changed except for the judicial appointments. We would still be in Iraq because it is still in the countries best interest and we were going to be over there to control Iran. All of the liberal blather about us getting out of Iraq is just bullshit.
Having said that if Kerry was president what would be significantly different in your estimation.
Have you any idea how many liberals say “better than the current regime.” this is nothing more than a campaign slogan equally as hollow as “Change” or “Hope”
… but that wasn’t the point of my original message. It’s the way the internet (and even more specifically, email) has become a breeding ground for a whole new level of political misrepresentations and smears that can, and do go unchecked.
I urge anyone who gets messages like this to do their research and check their facts… as I’m sure *you* do because you certainly don’t come across as someone who believes something on first draft (though, you may be prone to highlight it on your site without providing backup or balance)
I have been blogging for several years now. This blog is over 3 years old. I have a list of 25 or 30 blogs that I read each day both on the right and the left.
I have the luxury at work to do a shit load of reading so if something is being circulated via e-mail most bloggers both on the left and the right will usually ignore it.
The only people who fall for e-mail circulation crap are people who are more likely to be uninformed on many aspects of politics anyway.
I know lots of bloggers and even though we may differ significantly on political issues most are some of the most informed folks politically.
On the Obama e-mail that circulated via Blackfive bottom line is I trust the dude, he is one of the most reputable bloggers on the internet, but after the e-mail he posted was found to be misleading he apologized.
There is still some debate whether or not he “blew off” the troops particularly the planned visit to a hospital where wounded troops were staying because he was not allowed to visit them without cameras he in fact did say screw them, the wounded troops were not worth his time because he could not use pander cam when in my humble opinion he does not give a shit about the troops in the same way Clinton “loathe” the troops.
***********************************
… but unfortunately, we live in a world where people are so politically bent that they gladly strap on blinders and see only what they want to see. And to me, that’s a very sad thing.
I’m sorry but I don’t see anything wrong with that. This is America I’m entitled to be sickened by liberal ideology tax raising, socialist nonsense, social engineering, anti-God, anti-America, one world melting pot crap.
*******************
The US is a nation divided far further than I have ever seen, almost to the point that people are so rabidly passionate about their political leanings that they vote blindly. They would prefer to vote for the party, for the media-driven ideal, for the left or right, than for the right candidate… and will happily jump on stories such as the one prompting this thread to JUSTIFY their vote without getting the whole picture.
But my friend this is not NEW! Go back and read your history on the level of nastiness that was exhibited during the early campaigns at the beginning of this nation.
To say that this country is MORE divided than ever is typical is someone who like most people only process history from the day they were born.
I find it interesting that you allude to the fact that I may be from “the left” … it’s that black and white division that’s splitting the nation. While it’s true, I have some liberal leanings……..
Dude when you made the statement “better than the current regime.” You gave yourself away. I’ve been to enough liberal protest rallies to know a liberal when I read one. LOL!
I try not to get caught up in the crap-distractions of gay marriage, abortion, and the death penalty, and I loathe any politician who uses these topics to score points with the right or left. They’re passion-topics that have very little effect in addressing what is REALLY going wrong with the US.
Do you really believe that Barack Obama doesn’t support the troops? I certainly don’t… as a matter of fact, I don’t know ANYONE, with left or right leanings who doesn’t support the soldiers fighting this foolish war… but, man… get a candidate over there playing basketball and smile his political smile, and all of a sudden he’s a soldier-hater. Give me a break.
Yes I believe that Obama does not support the troops, period! He is right out of the Rev Wright School of liberation radical theology and “don’t fight whitey’s war.”
Let me guess you are in your late 20’s, perhaps working in a University setting you sound like an academic snob and I’m surrounded by way too many of them.
Are Kerry’s Military records all that big a deal in the grand scheme of things?
Still bitter about Kerry… amazing!
Kerry was a distorting lying sack of shit who threw his former buddies and this country under the bus and had the audacity to basically go over and pimp for the very communist thugs American soldiers were fighting against.
All I want is for people to see all sides of the candidates they’re voting for, and make an intelligent decision. Stop looking at whether they’re red or blue, or follow a donkey, an elephant, or whatever animal Ralph Nader follows… and stop getting distracted by shiny objects like fake emails and pointless passion topics.
With all dude respect dude, and I truly and sincerely hope you continue to comment but you are typical of most liberals I have ever known, you will come here to my blog where I do have strong opinions on issues and yes very anti-liberal and you want to lecture me and other individuals on what they should be concerned about and what they should rail against, what they should be passionate about.
I’ll repeat this is America we are free to have opinions and even to have angst about whatever the hell we want.
I don’t agree with liberal views on the war, on taxes, size of government, government role in society, gay issues, environmental issues, health care issues. But even if I could wave a magic wand and make groups like Code Pink or Move On or whatever environmental wacko groups go away I wouldn’t.
Intellectual and ideological balance is what makes this country work but that is bore out of freedom something that makes our country unique and what makes it so great.
What is one persons “pointless passion topic” is someone else’s life mission.
I was watching a show the other day where this lady has devoted her life and her money to helping African elephants. I don’t give a shit about elephants but I’m glad someone is.
I have never in my life openly ridiculed someone for having an opinion about something or why they were passionate about something that I either could not understand nor gave a rats ass about.
Just as an FYI, I’m not a Republican and if you have read any significant part of this blog would know that I am not a typical individual when it comes to my views insights or opinions.
To say that I am distracted by “shiny” political “objects” is rather condescending and elitist, but then again you are a liberal tis what y’all do best.
August 1st, 2008 at 10:51 am
Wow…
You really DO see things as black and white (or Red and Blue), don’t you? I had pegged you as someone who was reasonably open minded, but as soon as something smells Liberal, you immediately discount it as moronic. I’m usually a pretty good judge of character, but wow… Maybe I was wrong here.
So… let’s cover off some points:
Am I bitter about Kerry? Personally, I don’t give a shit about Kerry, and I felt he was the wrong man for the job… but I feel that Bush is, pardon the grammar, wronger. Can I base this on fact? No… no one can… I can only base it on speculation. You have no idea what Kerry would have done as president, and neither do I. Why? Because it didn’t happen. When Reagan was elected president, the initial reaction from the Left Wing was “Oh my god, here comes World War III” and “USSR, watch out!” … prompting Sting to write his Uber-Liberal Pablum song “Russians” … and I thought Reagan was a great president who united the world (and the country) far more than people had speculated he would divide it.
You’re welcome to speculate and hypothesize what Kerry would or would not have done. I won’t go down that road. My Ouija board doesn’t do politics.
Bush on the other hand, HAS a record of achievement, or lack thereof, and I CAN throw out my opinion that ANYONE would have been better than “this current regime.”
Next…
Blackfive admitted the mistake and apologized. Excellent… yet the email still circulates (nothing we can do to stop that) and OTHER sites (not necessarily yours) continue to push the already debunked article as fact. My comment was urging people to do their homework. You did, and I applaud you for that.
Next…
You don’t see anything wrong with political blinders? Man… that’s frightening. People who follow a party (Left or Right) blindly into the depths of Hell just because they’ve branded themselves Red or Blue is a dangerous thing. I’m not saying (and have never said) that being a Liberal Leftie or a Conservative Righty is a BAD thing… but refusing to look at both sides of an issue, and blindly following a leader or party solely because they are part of your ‘team’ is.
Next…
A country divided. Nope… it’s not new… and yes, I’ve read my history as it pertains to political campaigns, and have openly laughed at how little has changed. The messages haven’t changed, but the method and media have. Does the fact that it’s not new make it right? Hardly. I’m telling people to do their homework, and stop buying wholeheartedly into smear without verifying the facts.
If you read what I said, the country is divided further than I have ever seen, and yes, I am commenting on the state of the nation as *I* have seen it, and not by history. I am concerned about the NOW… not 100 years ago.
A country as fervently divided as it is now, is a dangerous thing. It’s the equivalent of two mortal enemies stuck in quicksand. They’re too concerned with fighting each other to notice that they’re sinking. In the end, both end up in shit too deep to get out.
Next…
Discounting me as a Liberal because of a statement… again, incredible. I don’t consider myself Left or Right. I’ve argued points on both sides, and will gladly defend both sides on issues if *I* feel it’s warranted. You can peg me, and discount my comments as much as you’d like, but it only goes to prove my point, that people put their political blinders on, and refuse to entertain the notion that a either side may have good ideas that would benefit the country as a whole. Be as partisan as you want… that’s your right. I don’t play that game, and it’s MY right to say that blind partisanship is wrong.
Next…
Loev the stereotype, but you’re way off. Early 40’s… Account Manager for a VERY large company… Wife, 2 kids, upper middle class. Well read, and voted Reagan (for a second term, too young for the first) and Bush the First… and I even liked some of Perot’s ideas, even though I thought he was a whack-job. Mom and Dad were Democrat and Republican supporters respectively, and got along famously.
… but the fact that you would peg and stereotype a person right out of the gate like that, gives me a better impression as to how you see the world.
Next…
I have enjoyed your blog, and have agreed with some of your ‘Strong Opinions’ and have disagreed with others. I have no desire to lecture you on what “they should be concerned about, and what they should rail against.” In fact, I ENCOURAGE it. Healthy debate is a GOOD thing for society… but healthy debate without listening to the other side’s position is a BAD thing.
“Nope. You’re wrong because you’re a Liberal.” is not a debate. It’s a 3rd grade argument.
Next…
Yes, this is America, and you’re certainly free to have opinions, but this has become a nation driven more and more by the ideal of “You’re either with us, or against us.” … Black or White. Red or Blue. My way, or the highway…
A good idea (in my opinion) proposed by someone with political ideals opposite to mine is *still* a good idea.
You’re right when you say that Intellectual and idealogical balance is what makes this country work. I’m just not sure whether your idea of balance, and mine are the same thing. I believe there’s the need for (and that there IS) common, middle ground.
Next…
Pointless Passion Topics… Yep. You’re right… for some people, these topics may be big on their radar, but I refuse to allow a single issue define a person.
I look at Dukakis, and the defining moment of his campaign, the death penalty. He got sandbagged on the question of whether he would believe that his position on the death penalty would waver if it was his own wife who had been raped and murdered, and it sunk him.
Now, I was no fan of Dukakis. Thought he was a wimpy tool (Though his Mom is a great actress) but his platform was WAY more than that single issue, and it became the ONLY issue that people talked about. (Clinton=Cigar, Quayle=Potatoe, Kerry=SBVT, Bush=Service Dodger, Gore=Wooden and Invented the Internet, etc.)
I refuse to ignore a candidate’s entire platform if I disagree with one issue. Doesn’t mean I’ll vote for them, but I certainly won’t discount them.
Last…
Who said that *you* were distracted by “shiny” political “objects”? Certainly not I. In fact, I made a point of stating, early in my message, that I believed you DID go outside the political walls to see what’s on the other side. The words I used were that you “don’t come across as someone who believes something on first draft (though, you may be prone to highlight it on your site without providing backup or balance)” … read: You don’t seem like someone who gets distracted by shiny objects.
The latter part of the comment was a dig, I’ll gladly admit it, and won’t censor it from my reply, but it wasn’t said without merit.
… but the first part was genuine. You referred to Blackfive’s retraction, and I applaud you for that. Many people wouldn’t do that, opting instead to ignore the facts and push on with their agenda.
Though, I still think you and I have common ground.
Then again, I *am* a condescending, elitist, 20-year old, University-bound Liberal (Hippie, Pinko-Communist, etc… etc…) … making you a a plaid-wearing, toothless redneck, who’s first name ends in Joe-Bob, with a gunrack on the back of your pickup that proudly displays your Rebel flag, and a small picture of Calvin pissing on a Ford logo.
… Wait! No I’m not! And somehow I doubt you are either.
August 1st, 2008 at 10:51 am
… oh, I forgot to call you Dude.
Damn.
August 1st, 2008 at 4:19 pm
WFA Real busy, I’ll check out your response and reply over the weekend.
Peace, Snoop
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:24 am
Ok I’m gonna be brief on these points…
Wow…
You really DO see things as black and white (or Red and Blue), don’t you? I had pegged you as someone who was reasonably open minded, but as soon as something smells Liberal, you immediately discount it as moronic. I’m usually a pretty good judge of character, but wow… Maybe I was wrong here.
What you mean is I’m not a fence on stuff.
Again when you said “better than this regime” well you gave yourself away. LOL!
So… let’s cover off some points:
Am I bitter about Kerry? Personally, I don’t give a shit about Kerry, and I felt he was the wrong man for the job… but I feel that Bush is, pardon the grammar, wronger. Can I base this on fact? No… no one can… I can only base it on speculation. You have no idea what Kerry would have done as president….
Yes I do… appointed idiot liberal judges, raised taxes, invited MORE illegal immigrants likely insulted more of our troops.
and neither do I. Why? Because it didn’t happen. When Reagan was elected president, the initial reaction from the Left Wing was “Oh my god, here comes World War III” and “USSR, watch out!” … prompting Sting to write his Uber-Liberal Pablum song “Russians” … and I thought Reagan was a great president who united the world (and the country) far more than people had speculated he would divide it.
You’re welcome to speculate and hypothesize what Kerry would or would not have done. I won’t go down that road. My Ouija board doesn’t do politics.
Bush on the other hand, HAS a record of achievement, or lack thereof, and I CAN throw out my opinion that ANYONE would have been better than “this current regime.”
Do me a favor and I will post your response on my blog unedited. Tell me specifically what are the failures of the “Bush regime” HOWEVER you can’t use any clichés, liberal media talking points or political jargon. Keep in mind that much of what you will likely attribute as Bush failures are also failures of the Congress and Senate because Bush can’t do jack without our buddies in Congress or the Senates approval. Take the Iraq war, if you think Bush’s Iraq policy is a “failure” why do you not hold your homies on the left accountable for continuing to fund a “failed policy.”
This is my issue with liberals you folks REFUSE to look at any issue in totality.
I have always said we need to be in Iraq. Liberals constantly chanted about “no blood for oil” yet now bitch about the high gas prices and drive gas guzzling vehicles themselves.
Liberal will say we should get out of Iraq and the moment we do gas will be $6 per gallon or higher. No we don’t import that much Iraq oil but our mission is to continue to the free flow of oil this is to stabilize economic markets around the world and to protect our interests overseas.
Republican AND Democrats support this notion, BUT Democrats will lie and distort saying that they want us out of Iraq to appease radical liberals knowing damm well that funding the war will be business as usual.
Yet you will say that is a Bush failure. If Democrats want us out of Iraq all they have to do is STOP FUNDING THE WAR. But they are pussies and claim that “Bush forced us to fund the war”
On the federal deficit, I’m equally as pissed about the fact that Bush’s spends tax dollars like a Democrat. Reduce the size of government is suppose to be what Republicans do.
Yes Bush failure, also the failure of congress but it sounds sexier to just blame Bush.
I understand the game, this is about gaining political power and the only way this is done is by deceiving and propagandizing. I understand both sides do it but the bottom line is that fact of life truth number one in politics is Democrats will run campaigns leaning right on various positions because that is where most Americans are slightly right of center, but when in office their liberal tax and spend big government ways will always surface.
***********
You don’t see anything wrong with political blinders? Man… that’s frightening. People who follow a party (Left or Right) blindly into the depths of Hell just because they’ve branded themselves Red or Blue is a dangerous thing…
I’m a conservative, period. I’m not a Republican I simply believe that folks should not be taxed to death and upon their death, reduce the size of government, more power needs to be directed to the individual states, we need to have clear defined borders, a strong military, government should be far less intruding yada yada yada…
Basically I think less liberalism the better. Less San Francisco values the better. Why is that “dangerous.”
**************
If you read what I said, the country is divided further than I have ever seen, and yes, I am commenting on the state of the nation as *I* have seen it, and not by history. I am concerned about the NOW… not 100 years ago.
Hmmm refusing to apply historical knowledge and how it applies today…interesting.
A country as fervently divided as it is now, is a dangerous thing. It’s the equivalent of two mortal enemies stuck in quicksand. They’re too concerned with fighting each other to notice that they’re sinking. In the end, both end up in shit too deep to get out.
Next…
Discounting me as a Liberal because of a statement… again, incredible. I don’t consider myself Left or Right. I’ve argued points on both sides, and will gladly defend both sides on issues if *I* feel it’s warranted. You can peg me, and discount my comments as much as you’d like, but it only goes to prove my point, that people put their political blinders on, and refuse to entertain the notion that a either side may have good ideas that would benefit the country as a whole. Be as partisan as you want… that’s your right. I don’t play that game, and it’s MY right to say that blind partisanship is wrong.
Next…
Loev the stereotype, but you’re way off. Early 40’s… Account Manager for a VERY large company… Wife, 2 kids, upper middle class. Well read, and voted Reagan (for a second term, too young for the first) and Bush the First… and I even liked some of Perot’s ideas, even though I thought he was a whack-job. Mom and Dad were Democrat and Republican supporters respectively, and got along famously.
… but the fact that you would peg and stereotype a person right out of the gate like that, gives me a better impression as to how you see the world.
I pegged you because as someone who has been blogging I have posted thousands of entries, I have had millions of visitors and read countless hours of liberal hand wringing on blogs and media sites.
Ooooo I got one wrong. But how many liberals have came to my blog and thought that I was a racist rich old white guy or old white woman.
Even in person the look that I get from liberals when they find out that I’m a conservative is priceless. I work at a University and everything you have written is something I hear and read every damm day.
One of my co-workers is you only a female if I had her read your replies she would agree 100 percent.
Pegging people is an inexact science. But I will tell you I’ve been put in a box far more than you have simply based on skin color and the vast majority of the time it is liberals who make that snap judgment.
I had a lady in my office the other day, big time writer and editor of several major publications. She wanted me to play a video slamming conservatives a musical parody. Before that she chatted me up about Obama, man I was laughing under my breath.
Now I have a good sense of humor but the money shot was after I played the video on my computer she noticed a Rush Limbaugh mug on my desk and some Reagan memorabilia and she turned green. LOL!
Point being we all make assumptions I do it often here on my blog more for fun and I’m correct more times than not but I can tell you from a 40 year old black dude that there is no need to be defensive we Negros get put in a box al the damm time.
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but healthy debate without listening to the other side’s position is a BAD thing.
As much liberal Democrat propaganda as I read I bet I can make liberal Democrats arguments better than more folks.
I believe in the old notion that you should be as well versed in your opponents views as your own.
“Nope. You’re wrong because you’re a Liberal.” is not a debate. It’s a 3rd grade argument.
Depends on what you are wrong about. Let’s see “I think Global Warming is destroying the planet and we all gonna die in 10 years.”
You would be dead wrong, why!? Because Al Gore said this almost 20 years ago!!
Keep commenting I look forward to hearing more from you.
As I say to most people we are not that far off on many things, politics only work at making those intellectual dividing lines more defined.
August 7th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
I’m on vacation (limited time access to the internet) but I’ll respond on my return.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
What you mean is I’m not a fence on stuff.
Again when you said “better than this regime” well you gave yourself away. LOL!
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You keep saying that I gave myself away… It *IS* a regime, look up the definition. What did I give myself away as… a Thesaurus? Snap judgements are not very becoming… but hey, it’s your right to be wrong.
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Do me a favor and I will post your response on my blog unedited. Tell me specifically what are the failures of the “Bush regime” HOWEVER you can’t use any clichés, liberal media talking points or political jargon. Keep in mind that much of what you will likely attribute as Bush failures are also failures of the Congress and Senate because Bush can’t do jack without our buddies in Congress or the Senates approval. Take the Iraq war, if you think Bush’s Iraq policy is a “failure” why do you not hold your homies on the left accountable for continuing to fund a “failed policy.”
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It’s typical of Bush-apologists to point fingers at everyone else. It’s almost as though you’re saying “You know, he’s just the President… it’s not like he really has any power.”
But I’ll gladly give you specifics surrounding the failures of this administration (or Presidency if you will)… on one condition… seeing as I can’t “use any cliches” … you can’t continue to point the finger at everyone else. While other people may be involved, none are as accountable as the President. There is a reason that he’s the *Chief* Executive, because, as Truman noted on his desk, “The Buck Stops Here”.
So, with that in mind, and under the assumption that you agree to this mutual sacrifice of cliches and scapegoats, I’ll continue:
- The largest foreign attack on US soil happened under his leadership, despite early (and ignored) warnings from the National Security Council that there was intelligence that Al Qaeda, and more specifically, Osama Bin Laden and to a similar extent, Mohammed Atta, was planning attacks… with planes. (My favorite backup to this is people spouting that since Dubya’s been on guard, there hasn’t been another foreign attack on US soil in 7 years… without taking into account that there hadn’t been one for 60 years before him.)
- No Child Left Behind - This program has cost the taxpayers Billions of Dollars, and has done little to improve the state of education. Instead, it’s trained teachers (and schools as a whole) to ‘teach to the test’ (and in some cases, outright cheat,) rather than teaching the curriculum, in order to achieve financial incentives. It also financially penalizes lower ranking schools, which in many cases, is counter-intuitive. If a school doesn’t have the means or resources to teach it’s students, and cannot accomplish the metrics set forth by the program, it’s penalized financially. Nice.
- Attacked Afghanistan and removed the Taliban from power… and then virtually abandoned the military actions, leaving NATO to continue cleaning up the mess. The Taliban’s influence continues to grow, and Afghanistan (along with Pakistan) continues to be a safe haven for terrorist groups (such as Al Qaeda) and training camps. Afghanistan, while it was no great shakes prior to the justified retaliation from the US (said sincerely) the place is in far worse shape than it was prior to the attacks. Isn’t it our responsibility to clean up this mess too?
- Supported, and undertook miltary action against a country, based on on faulty information (and some may speculate… intentionally faulty) and that posed no immediate threat to the United States, despite the urging from the United Nations to re-examine the evidence and pursue diplomacy (AND UN Inspectors going in and consistantly reporting that they could find nothing…) Doing so, effectively committed a large portion of the military, its reserves, and a God-awful amount of money (Trillions? Not sure) to defending an unwarranted, unsanctioned action. Meanwhile, countries like North Korea, and Iran remain REAL threats, and the US Military has far less resources than it would need to defend against any action from these (or any) threatening countries.
— In doing so, the President has alienated the United States from many of it’s allies, and has placed itself in a position of having far more enemies, with a greater passion to do harm to the nation than it had before this action.
- Is responsible for the biggest annual budget spending increases in US history.
- Was President while the largest Stock Market and Bankruptcy frauds in World History took place. So what, you may ask? Well… the CEO of one of the organizations was also his largest campaign contributor and very good personal friend. I’ve got a problem with that, as do many others.
- Is President while gas prices hit their highest… ever… yet refuses to use the national reserves to alleviate the pressure.
- Dramatically cut healthcare benefits for Veterans. I find this INCREDIBLY embarassing, especially during a time of war. How’s that for supporting the troops?
- Oh, and speaking of supporting the troops… Cut pay for soldiers in Iraq, and allowed for ridiculously long, and unlimited extensions of tours of duty. Coincidentally, despite all of this incredibly positive PR for the military, recruiting is signifiantly down… potentially making the most powerful army in the world less effective in the future.
- Vetoed bill to expand Stem-Cell research, when there is overwhelming evidence that this research would result in the treatment and potenial cure for diseases like Cerebral Palsy, Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson’s Disease, Several degenerative joint afflictions, Strokes… oh man… I could keep going and going.
- “Mission Accomplished”
- No-bid Contracts to Halliburton
- Osama Bin Laden’s still alive and kicking.
- Three years later, Louisiana is still in shambles, and 7 years after 9/11, the Freedom Tower still remains a hole in the ground.
- Rumsfeld: “It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”
- Inherited an annual federal budget surplus of $230 billion and transformed it into a $500+ billion deficit in less than three years. This negative turnaround of three-quarters of a trillion dollars is totally without precedent in our history.
- The Canadian Dollar matched and surpassed the value of the US Dollar for the first time in almost 40 years… and it’s not because THEIR economy is strong.
- There are estimates that well over 500,000 Iraqi lives have been lost during this war (most estimates are actually much higher than this). I’m pretty sure they’re not greeting us with open arms anymore… that is, if they still have arms. If a half million have been killed, can you imagine how many wounded they have? Oh, no… you can’t, because the media is censored heavily now that things aren’t all “shock and awe.”
I could go on, but my fingers are now getting tired.
So, to summarize, in a scant 8 years, He has negatively affected; eduction, the economy, the security of the nation, the rights of the American people, our level of respect on a global scale, the military, and the lives of over half a million people.
If I put successes against failures on a scale, I’m thinking the failure side would be noticeably heavier.
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This is my issue with liberals you folks REFUSE to look at any issue in totality.
I have always said we need to be in Iraq. Liberals constantly chanted about “no blood for oil” yet now bitch about the high gas prices and drive gas guzzling vehicles themselves.
- I never believed in the “No Blood for Oil” hippie-esque chant. The chant was catchy, but inaccurate. And I drive a Saturn… it’s pretty decent on gas.
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Liberal will say we should get out of Iraq and the moment we do gas will be $6 per gallon or higher. No we don’t import that much Iraq oil but our mission is to continue to the free flow of oil this is to stabilize economic markets around the world and to protect our interests overseas.
- Gas prices are high primarily because speculators have consistently bought Oil Futures, and refuse to let them go. Not selling keeps the price high. If you see a sudden drop in the cost of a barrel of oil, it’s because the bubble burst. The oil rich countries like Saudi Arabia have held consistent to their message that there is no oil shortage. Strange though, that the oil companies are consistently shattering profit records… wait… what is the Bush Family wealthy from??
Though, I never read ‘free flow of oil’ and ‘overseas economic interests’ into the mission title “Operation: Enduring Freedom”. Guess I need to read between the lines.
But, you know, as I re-read your statement… something really irks me about it. You’re saying that if we pull out of Iraq, gas will go to $6 per gallon… it’s now $4 per gallon, but prior to the start of the war in 2003, it was sitting at about $1.50 a gallon… using your logic, wouldn’t it be fair to say that going IN to Iraq had more effect on the price of gas ($2.50 a gallon increase) than pulling OUT of Iraq would (your estimate of approx. $2 increase)?
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Republican AND Democrats support this notion, BUT Democrats will lie and distort saying that they want us out of Iraq to appease radical liberals knowing damm well that funding the war will be business as usual.
Yet you will say that is a Bush failure. If Democrats want us out of Iraq all they have to do is STOP FUNDING THE WAR. But they are pussies and claim that “Bush forced us to fund the war”
- Are you telling me that the Republicans have been altogether truthful? Both sides lie and distort, and the media plays along. It’s the intelligent voter that does the research.
And I agree with you about the Dem’s being pussies about funding. They’re trapped in a corner… they want to win the election… and if they pull funding, then they lose a LOT of support. Politics is a bitch…
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On the federal deficit, I’m equally as pissed about the fact that Bush’s spends tax dollars like a Democrat. Reduce the size of government is suppose to be what Republicans do.
- Yup. Agreed…
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Yes Bush failure, also the failure of congress but it sounds sexier to just blame Bush.
- He’s just as responsible. And has the power to Veto Congress to boot (Yes, yes… Congress can Veto the President, but needs a 2/3 Majority) … Remember where the buck stops…
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I understand the game, this is about gaining political power and the only way this is done is by deceiving and propagandizing. I understand both sides do it but the bottom line is that fact of life truth number one in politics is Democrats will run campaigns leaning right on various positions because that is where most Americans are slightly right of center, but when in office their liberal tax and spend big government ways will always surface.
- But… but… there’s a Republican in power, who’s spending like crazy! Who knows… maybe we’ll get a Dem who doesn’t?
***********
You don’t see anything wrong with political blinders? Man… that’s frightening. People who follow a party (Left or Right) blindly into the depths of Hell just because they’ve branded themselves Red or Blue is a dangerous thing…
I’m a conservative, period. I’m not a Republican I simply believe that folks should not be taxed to death and upon their death, reduce the size of government, more power needs to be directed to the individual states, we need to have clear defined borders, a strong military, government should be far less intruding yada yada yada…
Basically I think less liberalism the better. Less San Francisco values the better. Why is that “dangerous.”
- See… I believe in a mostly Libertarian society (with slight socialist overtones.) Government should provide the necessities to live (Healthcare), Evolve (Education) and security (Military, and Law Enforcement). When they start doing things like cataloging all students in the “No Child Left Behind” program, and turning the collected data over to the military (which is what’s happening now… read the fine print) … Or buggin phone lines indiscriminately… well, now we’ve gone too far.
**************
If you read what I said, the country is divided further than I have ever seen, and yes, I am commenting on the state of the nation as *I* have seen it, and not by history. I am concerned about the NOW… not 100 years ago.
Hmmm refusing to apply historical knowledge and how it applies today…interesting.
- No, but nice edit. Your statement was essentially ‘It’s okay to accept it now because it’s happened before’ … and I’m saying that it’s fine to say that it happened then, but that, by no means, do I have to accept it now… rather, LEARN from it and evolve past it. Just because they blew a bomb over Hiroshima 60 years ago doesn’t make it okay to do it again because the precedent has been set.
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A country as fervently divided as it is now, is a dangerous thing. It’s the equivalent of two mortal enemies stuck in quicksand. They’re too concerned with fighting each other to notice that they’re sinking. In the end, both end up in shit too deep to get out.
Next…
Discounting me as a Liberal because of a statement… again, incredible. I don’t consider myself Left or Right. I’ve argued points on both sides, and will gladly defend both sides on issues if *I* feel it’s warranted. You can peg me, and discount my comments as much as you’d like, but it only goes to prove my point, that people put their political blinders on, and refuse to entertain the notion that a either side may have good ideas that would benefit the country as a whole. Be as partisan as you want… that’s your right. I don’t play that game, and it’s MY right to say that blind partisanship is wrong.
Next…
Loev the stereotype, but you’re way off. Early 40’s… Account Manager for a VERY large company… Wife, 2 kids, upper middle class. Well read, and voted Reagan (for a second term, too young for the first) and Bush the First… and I even liked some of Perot’s ideas, even though I thought he was a whack-job. Mom and Dad were Democrat and Republican supporters respectively, and got along famously.
… but the fact that you would peg and stereotype a person right out of the gate like that, gives me a better impression as to how you see the world.
I pegged you because as someone who has been blogging I have posted thousands of entries, I have had millions of visitors and read countless hours of liberal hand wringing on blogs and media sites.
Ooooo I got one wrong. But how many liberals have came to my blog and thought that I was a racist rich old white guy or old white woman.
Even in person the look that I get from liberals when they find out that I’m a conservative is priceless. I work at a University and everything you have written is something I hear and read every damm day.
One of my co-workers is you only a female if I had her read your replies she would agree 100 percent.
Pegging people is an inexact science. But I will tell you I’ve been put in a box far more than you have simply based on skin color and the vast majority of the time it is liberals who make that snap judgment.
I had a lady in my office the other day, big time writer and editor of several major publications. She wanted me to play a video slamming conservatives a musical parody. Before that she chatted me up about Obama, man I was laughing under my breath.
Now I have a good sense of humor but the money shot was after I played the video on my computer she noticed a Rush Limbaugh mug on my desk and some Reagan memorabilia and she turned green. LOL!
Point being we all make assumptions I do it often here on my blog more for fun and I’m correct more times than not but I can tell you from a 40 year old black dude that there is no need to be defensive we Negros get put in a box al the damm time.
- So therefore you feel the need to categorize people indiscriminately? Social profiling based on the minutest amount of information. Dangerous indeed.
Said “Regime” = Must be Liberal = Bad
… almost the same as:
Prays to Allah = Must be radical Islamist = Bad
… or:
Has car and bathtub on front lawn = Might be a redneck = Bad Jeff Foxworthy joke.
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but healthy debate without listening to the other side’s position is a BAD thing.
As much liberal Democrat propaganda as I read I bet I can make liberal Democrats arguments better than more folks.
I believe in the old notion that you should be as well versed in your opponents views as your own.
- And I agree. A balanced view, and education from ALL perspectives provides proper insight into the environment. This goes back to the ORIGINAL purpose of this thread… me urging people not to follow propaganda blindly.
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“Nope. You’re wrong because you’re a Liberal.” is not a debate. It’s a 3rd grade argument.
Depends on what you are wrong about. Let’s see “I think Global Warming is destroying the planet and we all gonna die in 10 years.”
You would be dead wrong, why!? Because Al Gore said this almost 20 years ago!!
- And George Bush, Condi Rice, Cheney, and Colin Powell said that Iraq was rife with weapons of mass destruction, just 5 years ago. And when you look at the end results of both lies/mistruths/misdirections/whatever — an attempt at a cleaner environment, a drive to become less dependant on fossil fuels, and a more environmentally conscious society, versus over 4,000 confirmed dead, and over 29,000 wounded US soldiers, and over a half million Iraqis… I think I’d rather be wrong about the former, rather than the latter.
Do me a favor though? Can you dig me up the quote from Al Gore from the late 80’s/early 90’s that says we’re all going to die in 10 years? I’d be interested in seeing that…
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Keep commenting I look forward to hearing more from you.
As I say to most people we are not that far off on many things, politics only work at making those intellectual dividing lines more defined.
- There’s *always* a common ground. Liberals and Conservatives both have one thing in common… the desire for better life, safer, freer country, and an optimistic outlook on the future (I’m sure there are more, but it’s getting late and my brain is numbing). If people would stop being DISTINCTLY and DEFINITEVLY Red and Blue or Left and Right, then we may stop this in-fighting, and moving this country forward instead of being stalled…
So rather than the divisive partisanship (redundant, I know) of being Red or Blue, Right or Left, Republican or Democrat… why not just be Americans, and focus on fighting for the country, rather than the party.
… but that’s just me.